I doubt that and even if that were the case whoever replaced them would behave in the same way.
Because its right thing to do.
Without sounding like a cynic - because there is something so defeatist about it - but I sadly doubt you are correct.
Well they can disagree but we need to be secure against terrorism.
I remember the 1970's when terrorists managed to run rings around the western security services.
Those days are gone.
Too true. Now the real terrorists are in power - absolute power - in the western world. OBomber, Camoron, Flanby, and of course Goldman Sachs.
I was wondering where the outrage was from the rest of Europe. Now we know. Complicit.
really? only now?? on what planet have you been living the last few years?I was wondering where the outrage was from the rest of Europe. Now we know. Complicit.
I was talking about the outrage against the recent revelations. I couldn't 'know' until they kept quiet this past two weeks, smart@ss. I do know they are in bed, Mr Finger on the pulse. Geez.
Roll up, roll up, ladies and gentlemen!
Who thinks they know what's going to happen next?
Nothing.
The NSA will still be in business next year and the year after.
A few politicians will make a few noises and then like the Ecuadorians they will realise that the USA is not kidding about its security and will fall back into line.
I don't have a problem with what the USA is doing because compared to the alternatives they are benign.
compared to the alternatives they are benign.
Unless you live in Japan, Vietnam, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Cuba, Serbia, Libya, Syria, Egypt, Palestine, Honduras... (to be continued)
I'm sure the Tanzanians are doing it as well, if anyone could be arsed to investigate them.
What a coincidence that the Guardian produces this story moments after Der Spiegel releases the latest Snowden batch of documents. The Der Spiegel story here http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/nsa-hat-wanzen-in-eu-gebaeuden-installiert-a-908515.html amongst other revelations shows how the US targeted the EU with bugging at the UN and in Brussels.
So does this mean that Snowden doesn't trust the Guardian anymore? I wouldn't be surprised after two days of Rory Carroll articles. It is all very murky.
not to mention that this source is clearly confused:
German politicians were complaining about the GCHQ tapping fibre cables wholesale, not handing over certain info on requested.was particularly concerned that senior German politicians had accused the UK of spying when their country had a similar third party deal with the NSA.
The UK and US was one thing (quite predictable)... but now other European countries?!
The story has just broken. In any case, the ECHR can only act if someone takes someone else to court, it doesn't make pronouncements on general revelations.
It was already suspected this was happening. The paranoid surveillance state is securely in place.
Why are you horrified?
Do you seriously believe that the USA is a malign power?
Dear dillinja, I think in spite of the usual anti-Europe protests, many people in the UK have a rather rosy picture of Europe and what really goes on there, not just as it affects the UK. Even/especially in Germany.
I'm sure large number of families in pakistan or iraq or afganistan or libya who have had innocent family members killed wouldnt see the american agenda as benign
Of course it's a malign power! Have you read any post-WW2 history?! Anti-democratic coups, invasions and wars galore, weapons dealing, terrorist and paramilitary funding, support for right-wing dictatorships, secret biological and chemical experimentation on people inside and outside the US, need I go on?
And no, saying that the Soviets or Chinese or whoever were doing worse is not an adequate reply. Not being the worst gangster in the neighbourhood does not make you a benign influence.
Goodness me there are a lot of straws falling on camels backs at the moment...
So, there's a global inter-governmental network of exchange of surveillance data with the US at the hub. I don't think we will be able to complain about Russia and China after this.
We do all realise that there's another side to this? Imagine there's an explosion tomorrow, hundreds of people killed and maimed. Continue comments.
And imagine none of the planning was done on the Internet... Carry on...
Just the point: it won't prevent it at all. And it is not intended to. Its to keep tabs on dissent.
Is there any end to the infringement of the public's rights in regards to this story? Just seems like one expose of government surveillance after another. 1984 has already become a reality, now we may brace ourselves for the realization of Huxley's Brave New World to become fact and not fiction...
Disappointing.
Interesting that European national governments are getting in the way of the EU.
Now that everyone knows that all these countries are snooping on what everyone is doing on the internet, email and mobile phones, terrorists and members of organised crime operations will surely avoid the internet, email and mobile phones like the plague when making their criminal plans.
So spending who knows how much of taxpayers' money monitoring something which criminals and terrorists aren't using to plan crimes seems like a scandalous waste of taxpayer money.
Unless terrorism and crime are just excuses to spy on the citizenry?
Who says it was a waste of money? The intelligence industry made a mint out of some high tech software and personnel provisions.
Its just crazy! People dont openly use language that would get them found out anyway - they seem to be watching us watching them...
Der Spiegel is right now reporting how NSA is eavesdropping on the EU institutions, installing bugs in their buildings and hacking into their servers.
http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/nsa-hat-wanzen-in-eu-gebaeuden-installiert-a-908515.html
German and EU politicians are demanding a freeze in the EU - US economic bloc talks. I guess this article here is published right now to deflect attention from that other story.
The extent of the media war going on is really eye - popping. This is going to be ugly.
German and EU politicians are demanding a freeze in the EU - US economic bloc talks.
That would be a very good move indeed.
I don't recall Guardian readers getting too upset when it was communist regimes in Eastern Europe gathering and sharing information.....
I would rather the US know what I get up to but who knows how many plots have been thwarted by this sort of intelligence gathering?
No... That's because we were all scared carp less on nuclear Armageddon.
I suspect you have a stereotype of a "Guardian Reader" rather than knowing any. I'd put money on a higher proportion of Guardian readers than any other national paper belonging to Amnesty International. AI had a policy of its groups supporting three prisoners of conscience, one from the west, one from the Communist bloc, and one from non-aligned countries.
Ah yes I remember when I was scared the Soviet Union and the DDRs secret police would snoop on my google search history and what music I listened to on Spotify..
I also remember when my 2011 Hybrid got 40 rods to the hogshead and all the oil was supplied by texans because the Arabs didn't know they had oil.
I don't recall Guardian readers getting too upset when it was communist regimes in Eastern Europe gathering and sharing information.....
I don't remember many pro-Soviet and pro-Warsaw Pact articles in the day.
I wouldn't be on surprised if the Americans have on file somewhere the last time I went to the toilet. And if it was a number one or two.
Considering the various individuals who attend the Builderberg group every year have connections with each across the continent its not surprising such surveillance is also happening in other countries.
I don't have a problem with the idea of intelligence agencies gathering data and sharing it with their counterparts in other countries because there are threats of mass physical violence to UK citizens from the right, left, religious and other fanatical groups.
But I do have a problem with ordinary citizens being kept in the dark about the range of activities and methods used to gather intelligence, the extent of such work and lack of independent oversight.
Why should I trust the powers that be after the intelligence lies and manipulation used to justify supporting the invasion of Iraq? And a police unit involved in intelligence gathering hiding its dirty tricks from a public inquiry adds to my demands for proper independent oversight.
Indeed. If the executive can make (or re-purpose) laws in
secret, their power is unlimited, because nobody knows what they are
doing. And they can all troop before government committees and lie their
arses off about what they are doing and justify that lying by arguing
that it is to protect the national interest.
Which is what's happening here, it seems to me. They need reining in, but I don't know who is going to do that.
Well, just to be fair, we should probably distinguish sigint in general as well as specific domestic criminal investigations from a massive domestic spying program. All nations have sigint collection programs, just as they all perform conventional espionage and attempt to destroy domestic criminal operations, and it's only natural for various European countries to share relevant intelligence with the US where it seems relevant to the other country's security interests.
Moreover, if some European security agency is tapping a suspect's calls or email, there's no reason not to share that with the US either on request or on their own initiative if it appears there is some kind of larger conspiracy or the suspect is a member of an international organization. All this is very straightforward and not cause for alarm, it seems to me.
Of course if Germany or some other country did in fact collect all domestic email or all telephone metadata and just transferred it to the US, that's another matter; that would be akin to the NSA abuses for which we are rightfully lauding Snowden and deriding the last two American presidencies.
"Of course if Germany or some other country did in fact collect all domestic email or all telephone metadata and just transferred it to the US, that's another matter; that would be akin to the NSA abuses for which we are rightfully lauding Snowden and deriding the last two American presidencies."
You mean like Sweden do?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FRA_law
Of course if Germany or some other country did in fact collect all domestic email or all telephone metadata and just transferred it to the US, that's another matter; that would be akin to the NSA abuses for which we are rightfully lauding Snowden and deriding the last two American presidencies.
Blanket surveillance is wrong, period. It doesn't matter which government has the data.
Ah yes the EU. Must get to Wikipedia to shorten the EU's entry to 'Western province of the Spy and Lie empire'.
Taking into account what have been the most popular words for search engines like google in the last 10 years everybody can blackmail everybody. This was the main idea behind Soviet Union - everybody is afraid of everybody and nobody is saying in public what truly thinks. Fear is determining all decisions and moves. Einstein was right with what he said about similar powerful things:
"The release of atom power has changed everything except our way of thinking...the solution to this problem lies in the heart of mankind. If only I had known, I should have become a watchmaker."
By the way - what is the reason why British and US press are not reporting on the bugging and surveillance of EU institutions?
If you can report that "Wayne Madsen....over the next 12
years held several sensitive positions within the agency,..." can it be
revealed what those positions were?
Perhaps what he's now telling us
is super-disinformation, intended to distract from the original
revelations by somehow blaming the Germans. People so easily fall for
that. But it doesn't quite add up, does it. Is what the said countries
were "sharing" really of the same order as the vast spying on all
citizens which has recently been whistle-blown?
I told you so. Germany is so hypocritically, it hurts! I'm German btw.
I believe this story, because over here everyone knows about what's going on. Germans are really bad in doing things secretly.
This is a pitifully and ridiculously circus with really bad clowns trying to get away with being a traitor to their own people.
And I see more entertaining news coming.
"I believe this story, because over here everyone knows about what's going on."
I doubt that anyone (including you) knows what is going on...
Of course: nothing to see folks, just business as usual. This is just "same old, same old". It's all legal and not even a secret.
Regarding thejoyofEssex
First those weren't free societies like ours are supposed to be.
Second, lap dogs like you will always lap up the rhetoric of fear from your slave masters.
ha Angela Merkel, all controlled opposition
its like Boris Johnson complaining about cuts to Housing Benefit when he had already told Cameron what he planned to say
This seems to be new stuff. In German newspapers I haven't read a thing about that. Should all this be true, the German government will get into serious trouble. There will be a huge outcry among German press and public. I am very curious about the future developments now.
And the it begins. The question is are we as people strong enough an have enough courage to stand up to our corrupt government? Now who's committing treason ? I think the politicians. Under the control of the us military! I smell revolution in the air.would n't it be fitting on July 4th
It's hard to know how this is going to go..seemingly all
western governments read from the same Devils Handbook and their
populations labour under the same frigid passivity..free thinking civil
rights lawyers leading class actions against governments maybe..and even
this would change nothing..
But hey! Truer words were never written..you get whatever Tyranny you deserve.
so much for democracy....george orwell books seems out of date now.
Wayne Madsen, a former US navy lieutenant who first worked for the NSA in 1985 and over the next 12 years held several sensitive positions within the agency, names Denmark, the Netherlands, France, Germany, Spain and Italy as having secret deals with the US.
Or does the US administration only want to silence those saying things which are publically embarrassing it?
...no, they only want to silence those saying things that are true.
...no, they only want to silence those saying things that are true.
You knew what Edward Snowden said was true, and that there are much bigger embarrassing secrets, by the hysterical reaction from the US administration.
OK. Here is my prediction.
No major (popular) political party will run on a platform of shutting down signals intelligence.
Because the overwhelming majority of people prefer it to allowing terrorists to run rampant.
Paranoia about the NSA is the reserve of kooks and professional malcontents.
A white haired bearded doctor called Harold has killed more people in Britain than the whole of Islamic terrorism combined. Stop being so bloody scared and cheer-leading for the loss of hard-won individual freedoms as a result.
Why do you conflate freedom with not being monitored by the state?
Wayne Madsen, a former US navy lieutenant who first worked for the NSA in 1985 and over the next 12 years held several sensitive positions within the agency,
So Madsen has been out of the loop for more than fifteen years -- yet now comes forward to 'reveal' something that was in a European Parliament report some twelve years ago?
Puh-leeze.
As Madsen says, "A lot of this information isn't secret, nor is it new."
The Guardian grows more ever desperate as its fifteen minutes of notoriety comes to an end..
This story will definitely make a great movie because now it has a twist.
New World Order. Everyone bowing down to America. I don't think the leaks will make any difference. There's nobody to challenge them. Horrible future we're heading into.
I agree with everything you say except for the bit about the horrible future.
The future is going to be fine.
I don't even know what to say anymore, all we can do as people is take a much action against this as possible, give people like Snowden and Wikileaks your support, form protests and other acts of civil disobedience.
Lets these intrusive thugs see and hear your anger.
So are they now going to string this guy up too for grassing on their dirty little secret?
Why are we so surprised that our private communications became accessible once the technology had been developed? It would have been even more remarkable if the security services had refused to stretch if not secretly break laws meant to severely limit their activities in this highly contentious area of civil liberties.
The most disturbing part is the outright deliberate, calculated, contemptible, arrogant, two faced lies, pretended indignation, acting from politicians of all political spectrum from Germany to Ireland, from UK to the USA, from ...
Yes, they in in it together alright, plus bilderberg, plus Devos, plus ...One big global con.
european hyopcrisy, is like a raging case of poison ivy..
at first you look and see just a small patch, but you scratch it a little bit, and suddenly it becomes a larger patch... and then its everywhere.
Just think... if all these countries are monitoring and throwing the data around to other countries... how is this data actually secure?
As a Dutchman I can add this.
Big news in the world, but not in Holland.
Two weeks ago an anonymous agent of the Dutch Secret Service confessed that he had full access to the PRISM files.
Due to the gigantic stupidity which keeps the whole of the Dutch-speaking area in an iron grip, this made no headlines.
So the German government spied on UK and American citizens on a massive scale, too? That is indeed outrageous.
29 June 2013 9:06pm
Disgusting ...